Re: Hey, look over here

[Buzzy]

Apparently.

[iluvfreebeer]

How would you feel about a religion that said men should fertilize as many beautiful girls between the ages of 12 and 17 as possible?

It appears no one else is familiar with this particular tenet of muslim haddith.

[Bilbo Baggins]

So, are you just going to ignore me?

I thought I answered you in my post.

bb did you know that atheism is just another religion where you get to play God for yourself. How small and boring that must be.

The only place I ever got bored was at church actually, I guess feats of resurrection and walking on water just didn't appeal to me. I would describe myself as agnostic actually; I don't know whats up there, but I know humankind definitely doesn't have the answer.

Hitler saw God as such a threat to their fascist governments that they outlawed any religion except the State.

Hitler actually wasn't against religion, he himself is quoted as saying; “We have . . . undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” He was no socialist either. Not that I'm defending him, just keeping things accurate. Stalin was no socialist either (not by my definition), the Soviet Union was more a state capitalist economy.

or maybe that whole "thou shalt not kill" thing just sticks in your craw?

For a country that still has the death penalty thats an interesting point to make.

Personally it doesn't matter to me what you believe as long as you don't try to force your non belief on me.

When have I tried to force it on anyone? I think I've repeatedly tried to make clear that I believe in a society where people can choose to worship or not. I may have hopes of a religion-free society in the future, but I have no right to make that decision for other people. Democracy and free choice in everything I say.

[KSigMason]

Why would we want to get rid of religion (in its form today at least)? Because it is a superstition. That is; 'a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like'. Religion is so divisive; the majority of all wars have been fought on religious grounds, and even today we see a clash of religions - the Christian West with the Muslim Middle East. I actually think I'm a pretty tolerant person with these kind of things. You can pray to whoever you want, as long as you don't force your religion on me, and as long as decisions made by the state are not religiously motivated. Thats a brief summary of my feelings towards religion, feel free to question me further.

You had edited your post since I last visited, or I must have missed it. It's been a long week. Either way, lets look at it. To your justification, I say 'have faith' and without 'a belief in God then no one can be truly bound to an obligation or promise'.

I'm all about freedom of religion, but to think the whole government should not make decisions based on religion is folly. It is so intertwined with our daily lives that you would be cutting something out of your life. Denying your faith, compromising oneself is wrong. Plus there is nothing to say that individual States cannot establish religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

[Bilbo Baggins]

Plus there is nothing to say that individual States cannot establish religion.

I don't know enough about the US Constitution to argue this point, but I think a secular society is very important. When one religion has precedence over another, then conflict arises. Best to keep all religion out of areas like education and government I feel.

but to think the whole government should not make decisions based on religion is folly

True, but these decisions should not be the promoting of one religion above others, or onto people who may not have any faith at all. Tolerance of religions should be taught, even a study of different religions and their practices, but no one should be forced to celebrate a religious festival, or take part in religious activities, that they do not believe in (in the public arena anyway. Private schools and organisations obviously have some leeway in what members are required to do)

[Buzzy]

Progressive socialists always seem to hate religion, it gets in the way of their agenda. The Constitution sort of gets in the way of the PS agenda too so they had to redefine the amendment promising freedom OF religion into freedom FROM religion in 1952. The entire nation has gone severely downhill since that day. So even though between 80% and 90% of all Americans consider themselves Christian the 10% to 20% who are atheist, agnostic, or of another religion (Muslim, Jewish, Druid etc.) run the show. It was actually about 1952 that the thought of majority rule came under attack in the US too.

When did NZ decide to let the various little fringe of society groups control your nation?

[Bilbo Baggins]

the 10% to 20% who are atheist, agnostic, or of another religion (Muslim, Jewish, Druid etc.) run the show.

How do they 'run the show'? What methods do they use to do so? Do druids still exist in any significant numbers?

When did NZ decide to let the various little fringe of society groups control your nation?

Fringe groups don't control my nation; our electoral system just allows the numerous voices of society to be heard (I presume thats what you're talking about). Lets remember that at our last general election 80% of the vote still went to the two main parties. But what's wrong with a little pluralism? It keeps things in balance and doesn't allow one ideology to completely dominate (unless people overwhelmingly decide to vote for parties on one side of the spectrum, but they haven't yet). For my mind its a real democracy. I can't say I agree with the two party system. And anyway, the only fringe groups in NZ are the fanatical religious ones; we like our secular society.

[KSigMason]

Plus there is nothing to say that individual States cannot establish religion.

I don't know enough about the US Constitution to argue this point, but I think a secular society is very important. When one religion has precedence over another, then conflict arises. Best to keep all religion out of areas like education and government I feel.

Yes, because there is no conflict now.

but to think the whole government should not make decisions based on religion is folly

True, but these decisions should not be the promoting of one religion above others, or onto people who may not have any faith at all. Tolerance of religions should be taught, even a study of different religions and their practices, but no one should be forced to celebrate a religious festival, or take part in religious activities, that they do not believe in (in the public arena anyway. Private schools and organisations obviously have some leeway in what members are required to do)

No one should be forced to learn about or tolerate a religion they think is wrong.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Yes, because there is no conflict now.

Firstly, the US is far from a secular society, even if technically you are supposed to be. Secondly, there will always be conflict, but it will be reduced people don't argue on religious grounds.

No one should be forced to learn about or tolerate a religion they think is wrong.

So if I think all religions are wrong, I don't have to learn about or tolerate any? In that case, maybe I should be lobbying for all religion to be banned.

[KSigMason]

So if I think all religions are wrong, I don't have to learn about or tolerate any? In that case, maybe I should be lobbying for all religion to be banned.

That is your right, well, I don't know about New Zealand's rights/freedoms, but in America yes, that is the citizen's right.

[Bilbo Baggins]

That is your right, well, I don't know about New Zealand's rights/freedoms, but in America yes, that is the citizen's right.

I'm not suggesting I couldn't under the law, but that such an act would be hateful and unacceptable to society as a whole, where tolerance of other beliefs and cultures is encouraged.

[iluvfreebeer]

Too much debate.

Round up the islamists and be done with it already.

[KSigMason]

Too much debate.

Round up the islamists and be done with it already.

Always to the point aren't ya beer?

[Buzzy]

Looking around lately I think that atheists may be a bigger problem than the jihad types. Scarcely a day goes by that some sniveling anti Christian doesn't start bitching about how his rights are trampled because a Christian has the gall to invoke their faith publically.

Apparently the whole damned nation has fogotten that the USA was founded as a Christian nation which would be tolerant of all other religions.

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law . an oligarchy the rule of few over many.


And Thomas Jefferson was correct in his concern. The question now is what are we going to do to make this right once again? Secularism is just a ruse for the few to rule over the many.

[Popov]

damn, remember i went through that phase ? - denial, frustration, etc ah the good old days - sigh -

bilbo - this is the kind of guy beer is, love it or leave it

And now popov and I just accept each other for what we are.
And we'd probably have a hell of time with some good wine, beer and a bar full of chicas!!!

ai mucho gusto senor ! one day maybe if i ever do the road trip across america i've been dreaming about since i was 15..