Re: Pakistan - Musharraf declares martial law

[Bilbo Baggins]

Dictatorships when its convenient huh? What happened to the US being the leader in spreading democracy and promoting the freedoms of all? Guess that US never really existing

[Clubtender]

Dictatorships when its convenient huh? What happened to the US being the leader in spreading democracy and promoting the freedoms of all? Guess that US never really existing

Protect and defend democracy where and when it is possible, but keep nukes out of the hands of Jihadis by any means necessary. Real life is not a college debate.

Sometimes, to protect your own people, you have to get involved in some rather dark shit.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Well we have a fundamental difference of opinions. I believe that when people have democratic rights, violence and extremist attitudes will be lessened, and I think that can be done in any country as long as their is a basic infastructure that prevents widespread abuse of the system, which I believe Pakistan has (though I've never been there so what do I know?).

You know the real solution to this problem? Nuclear disarmament

[Clubtender]

Well we have a fundamental difference of opinions. I believe that when people have democratic rights, violence and extremist attitudes will be lessened, and I think that can be done in any country as long as their is a basic infastructure that prevents widespread abuse of the system, which I believe Pakistan has (though I've never been there so what do I know?).

It would be fantastic if what you believed was true, but sadly it is not. Look at the Palestinians. They had a shot at electing a democratic government and they voted a terrorist organization into office. Are you willing to bet your life and the lives of everyone who you love that Pakistan would not do the same thing?

Protecting your own has priority over everyone and everything else.

You know the real solution to this problem? Nuclear disarmament

That genie can never be put back in the bottle.

[Bilbo Baggins]

That genie can never be put back in the bottle.

Indeed.

[Buzzy]

I only spent about 8 years of my life between Pakistan and Afghanistan so I do understand the way the place works to some degree.

Pervez Musharraf came to power in 1999, less than a year after Pakistan went nuclear. He has spent his entire Presidency keeping Islamofascist from obtaining control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.

The day that Musharraf is gone our sworn enemies, the same ones who had no qualms flying loaded airliners into packed business towers, have nuclear arms.

That day is coming and the only question is will it be sooner or later.

[Popov]

ok firstly i think it's unwise to place the nuclear issue on the same table as the democracy issue - pakistan's nuclear capacity was a direct reply to india's the two have never been good friends and the little arms race that has been going on for forever between them (the whole kashmir thing) is, i feel, unrelated to issues like democracy, police brutality, etc. for me the nuclear issue is strictly related to pakistan's foreign policy and does not directly affect any of it's domestic issues.

as for the whole dictatorship - democracy debate, i feel that while democracy could be a good thing for pakistan in the future, and that efforts should definitely be made to work towards it, it's totally unrealistic for it to spring up overnight in a country that's just now working past that whole stoning women to death for getting raped thing... mentalities cannot be changed overnight, and even if you have a regime change, the majority of the people will continue living by the old mindset - if you install a dictatorship in america the people won't buy it, they'll revolt and overthrow the gov't, and possibly a better, and historic example - when democracy was granted to russia in 91' they couldn't handle it, and the country went through ten years of pure anarchy, finally returning to a neo-dictatorial state recently

it's not a discussion of what's good or bad, it's simply a question of changing people - it can't be done overnight and in pakistan the road democracy will take many many many years

[Bilbo Baggins]

ok firstly i think it's unwise to place the nuclear issue on the same table as the democracy issue

I agree.

when democracy was granted to russia in 91' they couldn't handle it, and the country went through ten years of pure anarchy, finally returning to a neo-dictatorial state recently

Terrible economic policies by the new 'democratic' goverment caused this. You can't just go from State Capitalism (because thats what it really was, there was no communists in the Soviet Union) to a full free market, but it was imposed on Russia and their economy collapsed. Unemployment and poverty soared, and oligarchs gained more and more power until a dictatorship (or something a lot like it) was inevitable.

it can't be done overnight and in pakistan the road democracy will take many many many years

Maybe, but I think its about a hundred steps backwards when the President imposes martial law and suppress free speech because he doesn't want to lose his job. Elections might come eventually, but he's setting things up so that when they do theres only one possible outcome. This latest move has nothing to do with Islamic extremists.

[Buzzy]

If it's unwise to place the nuclear issue on the same table as the democracy issue then why don't we just remove Iraq or maybe even economics from the 2008 election. Hell, we can just run a beauty contest and ignore any and all inconvenient issues we want.

The nuclear issue is a huge issue, probably the biggest issue facing Pakistan's future at this moment. We should ignore it completely.

[Popov]

If it's unwise to place the nuclear issue on the same table as the democracy issue then why don't we just remove Iraq or maybe even economics from the 2008 election. Hell, we can just run a beauty contest and ignore any and all inconvenient issues we want.

The nuclear issue is a huge issue, probably the biggest issue facing Pakistan's future at this moment. We should ignore it completely.

you see ! what are you highlighting in your response...? the nukes and america - or in this case even more specifically the us election - this underlines my point - nukes are a big part of pakistan's FOREIGN policy, it's not a factor in the bullshit that's going on domestically in the country

[iluvfreebeer]

If it's unwise to place the nuclear issue on the same table as the democracy issue then why don't we just remove Iraq or maybe even economics from the 2008 election. Hell, we can just run a beauty contest and ignore any and all inconvenient issues we want.

The nuclear issue is a huge issue, probably the biggest issue facing Pakistan's future at this moment. We should ignore it completely.

you see ! what are you highlighting in your response...? the nukes and america - or in this case even more specifically the us election - this underlines my point - nukes are a big part of pakistan's FOREIGN policy, it's not a factor in the bullshit that's going on domestically in the country

Yes it is.
Nutjob muslims have the nukes now.
But REALLY whacky nutjobs want to take them for themselves.

It's all a matter of degree.

Secretly, EVERY nation wants the ultimate weapon.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Secretly, EVERY nation wants the ultimate weapon.

Bullshit. Absolute rubbbish. You never cease to amaze me with how stupid you can get.

[Popov]

not every NATION... every GOV'T, i would think that the majority of citizens in most countries aren't big fans of nuclear weapons and only buy into the whole concept because of the eternal - they have one we need one to counter them - dilema

[Bilbo Baggins]

not every NATION... every GOV'T,

I disagree, some nations in the world are completely against nuclear technology in all its forms, and despite being offered the opportunity to have it, continue to refuse to do so. New Zealand for one have declared its territory a 'nuclear-free zone' despite having the opportunity to use such technology.

[iluvfreebeer]

not every NATION... every GOV'T, i would think that the majority of citizens in most countries aren't big fans of nuclear weapons and only buy into the whole concept because of the eternal - they have one we need one to counter them - dilema

OK, I'll go with that. Every GOVT