Re: The bear is happy to be back

[iluvfreebeer]

for starters communism never existed,

And the tooth fairy is real.


--------------------------------

[KSigMason]

for starters communism never existed,

And the tooth fairy is real.

Was their any doubt!?

"Communism never existed" lol That's fresh, popov. You really should do stand up.

[Popov]

for starters communism never existed,

And the tooth fairy is real.

Was their any doubt!?

"Communism never existed" lol That's fresh, popov. You really should do stand up.

under communism there is no gov't - the people govern themselves, there's no central leadership, kind of like a confederation but to a far greater extent
there's nothing funny about it

[iluvfreebeer]

The russians fucked up communism like the fuck up nearly everything else.
At their heart, it's a thuggish culture of savages.

[old goat]

Actually, Popov, in the pure sense you are are right, there was no true following of communism, simply because it cannot work. However, communism has been defined by the Russian model because that is what they called it and lived by. You can't ignore how things become defined, even though the idealistic definition doesn't match what the real life version ended up being.

The first settlers in America had tried communism... the TRUE deal. It was a miserable failure. Once they went to a form of capitolism they thrived. No matter what the means, socialism, communism, (just reinvented forms of each other by todays meaning of the words) will fail. It goes against human nature, the only being that could make it work is God. And even He disapproves of that system.

[Popov]

For starters let me dissuade any notions that you might have of me backing or believing in communism, and just to reply to what you said goat, it was called the USSR for a reason - union of soviet SOCIALIST republics. While the Communist party was the only party and thus the ruling one, nobody within Russia referred to the state as a communist one, so the definition of Russia as a communist state was a false label put forth by the west and in particular by America.

[Buzzy]

Name tags such as communist or socialist (or any other for that matter) are useful only as viewed in the light of history with each manifestation further defining the term. Republican used to mean conservative but since Bush41 it means Democrat Lite. Until 2000 (and Al Gore) I was a Democrat by party membership but still an unashamed conservative.

Although the German Nazi party had the term "socialist" in its title it was a fascist party. The NoK's have the term Democratic (as do many other totalitarian nations) in its title but no elections have been held there and the people hold zero political power.

No, the USSR wasn't textbook practice of Karl Marx's communist manifesto but the USSR did define communism as a type of brutal totalitarian socialism.

[old goat]

That was what I was trying (poorly) to say. Popov, despite you being a bit to the left with regard to some of your ideas, I really don't think of you as being communist, (what it has come to mean, not the ideal definition), but you have some socialist leanings. All those on the left do, where they think that the government is the answer to their woes. Medicine, welfare, minimum wage, reduction of religion in all public spheres are the rallying cry of the left, they are the drains on society where no matter how much money and resources you throw at it there will NEVER be a solution. It is designed to make the people beholden to the government rather than their own efforts.

Communism and socialism are two sides of the same basic coin. It wasn't Americans who defined Russia under Stalin as communists though, it came from the "communists" themselves. They were in Germany at the time of the Nazis, and the Nazis got into power in part because of the fear of the communists making Germany into a clone of Russia. Communists of that era were really socialists more than anything else.

[Popov]

Name tags such as communist or socialist (or any other for that matter) are useful only as viewed in the light of history with each manifestation further defining the term. Republican used to mean conservative but since Bush41 it means Democrat Lite. Until 2000 (and Al Gore) I was a Democrat by party membership but still an unashamed conservative.

Although the German Nazi party had the term "socialist" in its title it was a fascist party. The NoK's have the term Democratic (as do many other totalitarian nations) in its title but no elections have been held there and the people hold zero political power.

No, the USSR wasn't textbook practice of Karl Marx's communist manifesto but the USSR did define communism as a type of brutal totalitarian socialism.

the ussr under stalin, and at some other points, sure, but saying that during almost 80 years we had the same system and same brutality is just plain ignorant - i can agree that the ussr under stalin is a typical form of brutal totalitarian socialism, but the rest of it was different - and you can't use a system that changed over time to define something, if you know what i mean - just like you can't say america under reagan and america under clinton was the same thing.

[old goat]

Of course you can. Under Stalin, under Breshnev, under any of the old party Russia was still the same basic country. Just as under Reagan or Klinton America was the same basic country, the direction of the country was changed as far as National policies but underlying principles don't change swiftly.

Russia is still trying to deal with the massive blow that it took to its economy including the loss of all those "states" under its dictatorship. It has the outward appearance of being changed, but the people in power still grew up so to speak under the old system. Putin sure seems to be quite the little Stalin, though all the deaths surrounding him are only coincidental.

[Buzzy]

America actually was the "same thing" under Clinton as it was under Reagan but what you're talking about is an estimated 50 million people being locked away and many dying in Siberian gulags from 1930 to 1950. Many of these prisoner's crimes were related to Stalin's demand that all art reflect "realism" as he saw it. An aircraft design group didn't perform so they were sent to the Gulags. Have relatives living abroad, off you go to work in the mines in Siberia. Otto Trepper tried to warn the USSR about Hitler's impending attack from Paris, after the war no medal, no thank you, off to the Gulags. Write something that didn't sit quite right with the party and off you go to the gulags sure set the face of Soviet communism to stay. Come to think of it, what happens when you write something critical of Putin these day, sure have been a lot of writers dying in Russia lately. I can name names if you like.

Communism / socialism as it is practiced is a philosophy that crushes the individual to fit the collective. The proud nail is always pounded down. Innovation is looked upon as suspect. Watch our grand American socialists suck up to Hugo Chavez as he steals private property for the good of the collective just as Castro made made Cuba into a welfare state sucking money from the Soviet Union for decades. The world fed your glorious Russia for much of its 80 years because under the socialist system your own grain rotted in the grainery and dropped onto the tracks from shoddy train cars or was left in the fields because the people had no vested interest in harvesting grain for the collective as long as they themselves got fed.

I visited the USSR several times, well and long after Stalin descended into hell. I saw the lines of people standing at the "State" stores for crappy shoes, meat, bread, clothes. I saw the average Russian living like crap while the average American, Brit, West German, etc. lived like kings in comparison. The "black market" was the only way the people could survive as more than animals. They stole from the state as a way of life and sold anything they could to live better, live like a human should. Criminals, thieves etc. stayed on the street because to the Communist Party, even in the 1970's and 80's the real important criminal was one who dares question the party and its policies. It's no wonder that when communism fell apart they would resort to the same criminal life style they had formed under communism. A few short years isn't time enough to reform what 80 years of tyranny did to a whole nation. Yeah, it was wild, theft was rampant, crime everywhere with everyone making a lousy buck any way they could but Putin didn't really even give anything a chance, he just resorted to the old school socialist tricks. Who could blame them if when confronted by freedom they chose to retreat back to what they had known for nearly a century and it fit Putin's agenda very well. Most of the real big criminals were Putin's old pals from the KGB anyway. What a coincidence I can name names on them too. All people deserve the freedom to choose, the freedom to express and even to dissent without fear of their own government putting them away in jail for thought crimes or killing them. Did you know that the scariest thing for a Russian in the USSR was a knock on the door, I hear that more doors are being knocked on once again.

[iluvfreebeer]

Breshnev, Andropov and the rest were all a bunch of lovable teddy bears.
Only uncle Joe was mean.

[old goat]

Breshnev, Andropov and the rest were all a bunch of lovable teddy bears.
Only uncle Joe was mean.

Thanks for the laugh. Does that mean that Uncle Joe was a bit of a bully? Nah, he just didn't care about world opinion and was more open about it.

[Popov]

it wasn't all rosy, far from it, but there was definitely a lot of exaggeration on your side to emphasize the bad stuff, culture still managed to thrive under socialism, people were still people, we weren't the mindless drones you portrayed us to be for 80 years just because we didn't have any political voice.

[Buzzy]

"It wasn't rosy" = 50,000,000 people dying of deprivation, neglect, and hard labor in the Gulags for thought crimes or mere suspicion. The soviets locked up or killed off everyone with a brain. Stalin killed off nearly every capable military commander they had in 1937 and put political hacks with little ability in charge.

Actually the number of people Stalin murdered is only estimated as about 43,000,000 with the remaining 7,000,000 divided up between the other Soviet leaders.

Let's have some examples of culture that "managed to thrive" under communism / socialism in the USSR that would not have gotten someone shipped off to the Gulag if caught doing it.

My contention is that communism / socialism in the USSR and everywhere else it has spread views its people as cows, draft horses, sheep who do what they are told and think what they are told to think or face punishment and / or death.