The Nazi's Were Marxists

[Buzzy]

The Nazis were Marxists, no matter what our tainted academia and corrupt media wishes us to believe. Nazis, Bolsheviks, the Ku Klux Klan, Maoists, radical Islam and Facists -- all are on the Left, something that should be increasingly apparent to decent, honorable people in our times. The Big Lie which places Nazis on some mythical Far Right was created specifically so that there would be a bogeyman manacled on the wrists of those who wish us to move "too far" in the direction of Ronald Reagan or Barry Goldwater.


http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_nazis_were_maxists.html

[iluvfreebeer]

The Nazis were right wing socialists as opposed to left wing socialists like Hillary.

[Popov]

ok calling the nazis socialists is one thing - hitler's part was the national socialist party or something like that, but they were definately right wing extremists, not left. Left wing extremists strive for socialized everything, more power to the people, and a classless system - their right wing counterparts strive to build a political dictatorship that protects businesses, while it can be argued that both extremes are closer to each other than they are to the center, you can't put the nazis on the far left, there's just too many things that don't work out with that logic.

[KSigMason]

Extremists are extremists - they all pose threats of some sort.

[Buzzy]

ok calling the nazis socialists is one thing - hitler's part was the national socialist party or something like that, but they were definately right wing extremists, not left. Left wing extremists strive for socialized everything, more power to the people, and a classless system - their right wing counterparts strive to build a political dictatorship that protects businesses, while it can be argued that both extremes are closer to each other than they are to the center, you can't put the nazis on the far left, there's just too many things that don't work out with that logic.

You know that you just did your part in promoting the BIG LIE that socialists strive for more power to the people. Look at Chavez in Venezuela, he's taking power away from the people and giving it to himself yet he as lefty as they come. Socialists make the State the Business, or maybe thats not why every socialist country on the globe has State run business? The BIG LIE is that Business is bad while the State running the businesses is good and yet people still believe in that lie. Millions starved to death in the USSR in only 70 years while the BIG LIE told them they had power. Yet when they asked where their power was they were sentenced to forced labor camps and the gulags. Please stop drinking the koolaid Popov, it leads only to death and sorrow.

[Popov]

i was talking from an ideological standpoint, in practice of course things are different, that's why in practice these sorts of debates and comparisons arise, BECAUSE in fact these to ideologies are often manipulated to create dictatorial states.

[Buzzy]

In any event I didn't write the article and posted it here in an attempt to spice up the discussion.

It appears that Bilbo Baggins has run away but you were always my favorite lefty sparring partner anyway.

I hate extremists myself and think we should kill all of them. ( )

Yeah, Karl Marx told a good tale which absolutely can never be translated into a real political reality because man just doesn't work that way. Unfortunately every tin pot dictator on the globe uses socialism and communism to create the worst and most brutal totalitarian regimes. It used to amaze me watching Soviet citizens go hungry and standing in line for shoes while their country shipped billions of rubles worth of arms to rebels in other countries to try to dominate the world for communism.

[Bilbo Baggins]

It appears that Bilbo Baggins has run away but you were always my favorite lefty sparring partner anyway

Because he nearly always agrees with you, and now that I'm back I will be more abrasive than ever, and so...........

[/quote]It used to amaze me watching Soviet citizens go hungry and standing in line for shoes while their country shipped billions of rubles worth of arms to rebels in other countries to try to dominate the world for communism[quote]

You're talking shit again aren't you? Poverty in Russia has sky-rocketed since the collapse of the USSR (where it was formerly about 2%), real wages dropped 48% between 1989-1996, while male life expectancy dropped four years to 60. Now the Soviet Union was no socialist state, but it at least gave all its people the basic necessities of life, which is more than the US can say. Granted, the opportunities for the finer things in life were minimal, and their system had serious efficiency failures, but real socialism can work if applied by the right people. There has never been a truly socialist state.

And the Nazi's were socialists? Are you fucking nuts? I've heard this argument from the right-wing so much its crazy. As I recall, on the old CL it was claimed that Alexander the Great was a socialist. You guys are the masters of spin, though I shouldn't be suprised as Bill O'Reilly is a big favourite around here. Zing!

[iluvfreebeer]

It appears that Bilbo Baggins has run away but you were always my favorite lefty sparring partner anyway

Because he nearly always agrees with you, and now that I'm back I will be more abrasive than ever, and so...........

It used to amaze me watching Soviet citizens go hungry and standing in line for shoes while their country shipped billions of rubles worth of arms to rebels in other countries to try to dominate the world for communism

You're talking shit again aren't you? Poverty in Russia has sky-rocketed since the collapse of the USSR (where it was formerly about 2%), real wages dropped 48% between 1989-1996, while male life expectancy dropped four years to 60. Now the Soviet Union was no socialist state, but it at least gave all its people the basic necessities of life, which is more than the US can say. Granted, the opportunities for the finer things in life were minimal, and their system had serious efficiency failures, but real socialism can work if applied by the right people. There has never been a truly socialist state.

And the Nazi's were socialists? Are you fucking nuts? I've heard this argument from the right-wing so much its crazy. As I recall, on the old CL it was claimed that Alexander the Great was a socialist. You guys are the masters of spin, though I shouldn't be suprised as Bill O'Reilly is a big favourite around here. Zing!

Bil O'Really?
Are you fucking nuts?

Never mind.
You're a lib.
Of course your fucking nuts.

[Buzzy]

What amazes me is that he obviously thinks that people are standing in line for food here in the US but denies that ever happened in the USSR and even that the USSR was socialist or communist. Talk about revisionary thinking.

Go ahead and rewrite history in your own mind. I spent time in Moscow, saw the lines the despair and the fear that even being critical of the Kremlin would get you a one way ticket to a work camp in Siberia.

So let's look at the Communist's own definition of POVERTY in their Utopian homeland. They set it at 50 rubles per month and even at that starvation level setting much more than 2% of the population was at or below that amount. Do you actually think that people didn't have to buy food, rent an apartment (they couldn't own it now could they), purchase clothes etc. in Soviet Russia? They did and 50 rubles didn't even begin to meet their needs.

[Bilbo Baggins]

What amazes me is that he obviously thinks that people are standing in line for food here in the US but denies that ever happened in the USSR and even that the USSR was socialist or communist. Talk about revisionary thinking.

No people don't wait in lines for food in the US, they just starve because nobody looks after them or gives them at least a chance to better themselves. Some country. The USSR was not socialist; the closest system to it that I can think of is state capitalist. Now since I don't expect any of you to bother to look that up I will provide a definition. Its taken from Wikipedia, but it gives a good general overview of what I'm talking about:

State capitalism, in its classic meaning, is a private capitalist economy under state control. This term was often used to describe the controlled economies of the great powers in the First World War. In more modern sense, state capitalism is a term used to describe a system where state is intervening in the markets to protect and advance interests of big business. This practice is in sharp contrast with the ideals of free market capitalism.

This term is also used by some heterodox economists to describe a society wherein the productive forces are owned and run by a state in a capitalist way, even if such a state chooses to call itself socialist. Within Marxist literature, state capitalism is usually defined in the latter sense: as a social system combining capitalism — the wage system of producing and appropriating surplus value — with ownership by a state apparatus. By that definition, a state capitalist country is a country where the government controls the economy and essentially acts like a single giant corporation.

So let's look at the Communist's own definition of POVERTY in their Utopian homeland. They set it at 50 rubles per month and even at that starvation level setting much more than 2% of the population was at or below that amount. Do you actually think that people didn't have to buy food, rent an apartment (they couldn't own it now could they), purchase clothes etc. in Soviet Russia? They did and 50 rubles didn't even begin to meet their needs.

Can I get a source for this?

[Buzzy]

I'll have to find the source on my home computer. I'm working and on the crackberry now and mobile.

But exactly where do you see starving people in the US. Maybe a stray mental case who refuses care but you can thank you're liberal bretheren who dumped thousands of seriously mentally ill people on the streets and out of government paid facilities a decade or so ago for that. Even here in Oklahoma, where we honestly don't have a lot of programs other states do, if a person is hungry there is help, free food, free clothes, shelter. We have millions of worthless lazy butts who haven't held a job for their entire lives, their parents never held jobs and their parents before them never held a job and they are some of the fattest folks you'll ever see. They can barely fit their fat asses into their cars for all the crap they eat while sitting around watching TV and making new welfare babies. Nobody is starving here and if people are going to bed hungry then someone spent the welfare check on crack instead of food.

While we're on the subject of State Capitalism

"In more modern sense, state capitalism is a term used to describe a system where state is intervening in the markets to protect and advance interests of big business. This practice is in sharp contrast with the ideals of free market capitalism."

is a great description of exactly how Nazi Germany worked. So maybe neither Stalin's USSR nor Hitler's Germany were Marxist, maybe they were both State Capitalist. But then exactly why did the USSR call themselves communist over and over and over. Good try at rewriting history but no cigar.

[KSigMason]

"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely"

[Buzzy]

Can I get a source for this?

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=HVWTNJSWRtw296JGqjsrThlhT7rwnxSQVYHJX311crsPpplLsVZ2!1533598610?docId=5001711848

and others if you want to search a bit. I use the government version of copernic but google should work just fine. Of course those figures were for 1982, and compare with a median US weekly salery or wages of $367. I use 1982 because the USSR started going into the crapper in 1983.

[Popov]

i can second the low pay thing cuz my whole family lives and lived in russia since forever BUT
take into account 2 things

1 - cost of living in russia was pretty cheap in comparison so when you say 50 rubles you have to take into account that a loaf of bread was 5 kopeks (cents) and that Moscow - Kiev by plane cost 15 rubles in the 70s / 80s. Also no unemployment - everybody had a job, VERY low crime, free healthcare etc.

now obviously people weren't living the american dream - while you guys where discovering "two cars in every garage" soviet citizens were discovering the new and exciting possiblities of owning a 4 door or buying a place in the country - which has to be taken into account, everybody lived in apartments, suburbia didn't exist in russia till the 90s BUT maybe 1 out of 5 or 6 citizens could save up and buy a cottage... so there was that

2 - VERY IMPORTANT - VERY few people knew about how people lived outside the socialist block. you heard about the oppression of the black man and that americans were imperialist pigs but that was about it. nobody could compare their lifestyles with those of people in western europe or america - and ignorance is bliss. today, a broke, starving, toothless old man in the middle of siberia can watch mtv cribs on his tv, how is this an improvement ? i don't know. Would i go back to "communism" NO, do a lot of russians regret the advent of "democracy" YES. Russia is slowly coming out of the anarchy of the 90s, but poverty is still present in great numbers and social services suck balls, so its perfectly understandable why people are nostalgic about the good old days. It's like kids who lost their innocence too soon, grew up too fast, and regret the ignorant carefree days of yore - you can't go back, but you like to reminisce.